Saturday, 30 January 2010

  • Do People with Autism Have Feelings?

    I bet you’ve noticed that people with autism don’t display their feelings too easily. I used to cry at the front door when Jonny went off to school and didn’t even turn back to say goodbye to me as he walked out the door to school. In fact I didn’t even think he had feelings for the first 5 years of his life.

    At six, he rode his bike across a busy highway without stopping to see if any cars were coming. I got very mad at him yelling “Jonathan, what do you think you are doing? You could have been killed.”  He said “sorry, mom”. I snapped back in my anger saying “sorry doesn’t cut it”.   

    He began crying which shocked me.  He said “you hurt my feelings.”  Up until that time, he didn’t display his feelings in the traditional sense, so I didn’t know how to perceive his feelings.  Sometimes it appeared he didn’t even have feelings though I knew he did.  

    After one of my readers read this recently, she wrote this back to me:

    Thank you and this is so true my girl is now 12 and shows her feelings but not towards her baby sister who is now 2yrs, she don’t really even like to be around her and when she does which is not much at all it surprises me that Skye daughter with Autism will even play with her ball i’m sure these are signs of progress.


Comments (18)

  • mathematicalbagpiper@xanga

    Hmmm, I'd say we do have feelings. In fact, I'm a very emotional person. I shed more than my fair share of tears, for sure. 

  • sparrowrose

    I am always surprised when people tell me they didn't know I have deep feelings. I feel like I "wear my heart on my sleeve" and like everyone can see clearly what I am feeling. Maybe that is a theory of mind issue.


    My body, apparently, doesn't convey the feelings that are inside me in a way that others can understand. There have been many times when I have been nearly overwhelmed by feelings of peace and joy at the sight of something beautiful like a gorgeous sunset or a masterfully executed painting (I stood for half a day in front of Renoir's painting of the boat party. I never cared for the image before but when I saw the original, I was transfixed.) During these times of great bliss, nearly inevitably someone will ask me what's wrong or what I'm angry about. Apparently, what my face does during extreme happiness is what other people's face does when they are very angry and upset.


    About a year after my infant daughter died, my mother (who, I assume, had no clue about my autism as I didn't know about it yet and was never properly diagnosed as a child) said that she had been very worried about me when Gwynn died because I "showed no emotion." She was there at the hospital and she helped me plan the funeral and brought food to my home for the guests who came over afterward. She said my face was blank the whole time and I didn't scream or cry and so she was worried and thought I was in some kind of emotional shock and didn't know what to do for me. I was surprised to hear that description of me because that was a time of great agony for me.


    Then again, she should have remembered how angry she was with me after my great-grandmother's funeral because I didn't cry or look sad and I exchanged a joke with my cousin. I said that I loved my great-grandmother, more than anyone else in the family and my mother angrily said, "bullshit" to that because I didn't behave properly. At the time I said, "I express grief in my own way" and she just said "bullshit" again. But I guess she didn't remember all that when my daughter died because it was almost like she was seeing me grieve for the first time. For that matter, I didn't cry when I was almost seven and was told that my beloved older brother had just died. I did cry for him -- years later. But sometimes it takes a while for my emotions to catch up with events.


    I think it's funny that the descriptions of autism say that *we* are the ones who cannot read emotions and cannot understand human expressions. It seems to me that *you* non-autistic people have just as much difficulty reading our emotions and expressions. It seems to me that it's a "two-way street" when it comes to deciphering human expressions and maybe it shouldn't be described as one of our "deficits" but rather an inter-neurotype communication issue: not our fault, not your fault. Not one of our "disabilities" but something we *both* have to work at.

  • BobRichter@xanga

    @sparrowrose - Don't you have trouble reading enties? We're still the majority, you know. Do you read auties better than enties do? Because if you read auties effortlessly, you might have a point there. Otherwise, auties have a communication deficit.



  • sparrowrose

    @BobRichter@xanga - Does "enties" mean NTs?


    A question of my own: do you "read" other non-autistic people *effortlessly*? Some of the things I've heard from people indicate that some emotions are obvious (big smile, sobbing, screaming in pain) while many emotions are more complex and require effort to discern (though still much easier to "read" than autistic emotions.)


    Other than online (where I do find my own kind easier to understand than non-autistics) I have no idea how well I "read" autistics because I only know two: my cousin and my father. But I can read both of them very well. However, how much of that is family proximity and how much is shared neurotype? I'd love to meet more autistic adults someday. I live in a small town in a rural state so I will have to travel someplace (maybe Autreat someday) to meet more autistic people.

  • sparrowrose

    @BobRichter@xanga - p.s. just because your people are the majority doesn't automatically make you right and my people wrong.

  • Springingtiger

    I just discovered I could drag and drop @BobRichter@xanga
    Anyway my point is we are each individuals and each feels in his or her own way, most of the time I can't read my own emotions but I am feeling them. NTs don't actually read other people's emotions they merely project upon others from the concept of  their own experience. This is not a "them and us" conversation we all need to live in this world. However I am surprised you accuse us of a communication deficit when most of NT conversation is trivial if not meaningless. You may have a broad range of non verbal communication but what's the point if you have nothing of interest to communicate?

  • BobRichter@xanga

    @sparrowrose - Yeah, enties = NTs. Looks better to me, don't ask me why.


    The general emotional state of a neurotypical person is generally as plain as the nose on their face. Some can learn to hide it or even to manipulate it, but it's actually hard for a neurotypical person to shut down or manipulate those nonverbal channels. You could even say that neurotypical people have a deception deficit.


    The causes of emotions may not always be immediately obvious, and conflicting emotions can get confusing, but the channel is there for enties, where it's often noticably absent with (for example) aspies, which is one thing that makes neurotypical people uncomfortable around them or tend to ignore them.


    p.s."my people"? "your people"? Those are terms of association not classification. My aspie is "my people" (actually, she's the most important person in the world to me) and I'm sure you'd count some enties among "your people." And it's not about "wrong" and "right," it's about utility. If my form of communication is more useful to me than yours is to you, it's objectively better. That's where the majority comes in. The odds are better than even that any given person you or I will have to deal with is neurotypical, meaning that neurotypical communication is more generally useful.


    @Springingtiger -  Neurotypical people are highly reliant on channels of nonverbal communication. Everybody projects, but if you cut off those channels, that's all anyone's left with. That's part of why everyone on the internet is such an asshole.


    I've actually found that my aspie is at an advantage on the internet. She doesn't rely on nonverbal communication like I do, so when it's removed, she's still at the same place she is interacting face to face.


    To the accusation that neurotypical people have nothing useful to say -- you just called me boring and stupid. That's an opinion, which makes it factually nonevalulable. I will say that there are a number of people, neurotypical and not, who would disagree with you. My aspie thinks I'm funny and smart.

  • sparrowrose

    @BobRichter@xanga - "Yeah, enties = NTs. Looks better to me, don't ask me why."


    It looks wrong to me. It puts the emphasis on the wrong syllable. If it feels better to you, though, I'm not going to try to stop you. I'm a firm believer in allowing people autonomy in self-identification.


    "and I'm sure you'd count some enties among "your people.""


    No, not really.

  • cyberbear@xanga

    I have never been diagnosed, but I have lived with mild autism for fifty nine years.  My emotions are sometimes not visible to the uninitiated,  and because I usually handle chaotic or noisy situations with a slow but sure approach, I have been blasted for being "too laid back" by those you call"enties".  One observant soul once looked at me and remarked "Still waters run deep".
    My noisier and more emotional wife is fine with my behavior.  So are my non-autistic son and siblings, and most others with whom I'm close in sunny Phoenix.

  • anonymous

    Definately. I for one display more emotion than most of the other people that I know. 

  • Springingtiger

    @BobRichter@xanga  Thanks for clarifying your position. In terms of utility I use very little face to face communication and when I do I tend not to look at people - my focus is on content. NTs habitually dissemble there are many books about the ways they do it and they can learn to hide their emotions - we can't hide, so any emotion or thought we reveal is genuine (not always a good thing).

    Whoops, I never meant to accuse you of being " boring and stupid" and on reflection I don't think I did and I certainly don't think you are or I wouldn't bother to reply. I was merely commenting that much of the content of most peoples conversations is unnecessary and that body language does not convey content and so is of little relevance. Like your aspie (how long have you owned her?) I prefer this mediumof communication.

  • anonymous

    Wow what a discussion! I love it when a person with autism speaks and let us know about the world from their perspective. As a mother of a child with autism, I strongly beleive they have very deep emotions. It is the matter of communicating those emotions.When my son was little, it was obviouse he wanted me next to his crib when he he would wake up, but he did not know that he had to call me! I had to teach him to call my name when he needed me. Same thing abut emotions. He is now five and learning to show his emotions if he wants to influence people. He is practicing reading and expressing emotions very hard. Something that comes very natural to a 2 yea rold NT child. Internally NT and non NT we are all the same. Human. Externally, we look different and we learn differently. Somethings come natural to Nts some natural to Autistics. One of those things that we NT people have to think about before we act that way, is honesty. But it is built in the nature of a person with Autism.


    We NT people have to learn to be accepting and understanding of people who may look different or "strange" to us. Since my son's diagnosis I have changed to be a more accepting non judgmental person. Unfortunately it took me my son's situation to learn this lesson. Otherwise I was an ignorant and very judgmental person. That is why we need more awarness on this subject so that others (NT prople) learn to look deeper and stop judging people  just because they do not act the way we expect them to.


    Just my two cents.

  • the_kcar

    Tossing in my $0.02...
    My youngest, who is a high-functioning, moderately autistic teen, has always had a fuller and deeper range of emotions than the average NT - but rarely showed it or had direct cause->effect that I could discern.

    How to read the emotions was the tricky part - his face would be still, his words would be specific, but the subtle pitch of his voice would shift at some point, or his eyebrows would peak if he was under high stress, or he'd specifically look over a person's head, rather than looking directly into eyes. Little things that NTs would miss, nearly every time.

    I've seen him with about five different emotions in a full range - and NTs generally feel one emotion at a time - with more than one emotion causing confusion. He'd have a full depth of emotions, but no real words to express it - only a few verbal habits to help identify it.

    I've also seen that, as he interacts with NTs, they can't quite read his emotions - while he, simultaneously, can't always grasp theirs. I used to intercede to explain/translate - but now, as a teen, he's more comfortable with me holding a distance than with me being on-site [he's that age...]

    It's hard, and, these days, getting harder to read his "tells" - the expressions in his eyes or his verbal patterns or his physical actions. We do what we can...

  • keystspf@xanga

    I wish I could make a shirt that said, "Aspies have feelings too." We're different, but dang it, we're still human... mostly? LOL Maybe we're like the X-Men... some of us a bit less "offensive" than others. LOL

  • BobRichter@xanga

    @Springingtiger - She owns me, not vice-versa, and that's a surprisingly complex question. We've known each other for over a decade now, she was my High School sweetheart.


    You seemed to be suggesting that neurotypical people had nothing interesting or useful to say. That would make us all boring and stupid. Of course that's not what you meant, but that's how it came across to me. Now, I think you're saying that the nonverbal channel is useless -- that's not quite right. It doesn't carry content so much as context, but it still makes for more effective communication.


    It probably seems useless to you -- but that's the exact "communication deficit" we're talking about.


  • Springingtiger

    @BobRichter@xanga -  The non-verbal channel conveys little that I can use, you are correct. Nice come back on the possessive - as quick as Natasha Kerensky.

  • wmaxwell@xanga

    I am an Aspie and consider myself a very emotional person. The problem to me is that my emotions are mostly on the inside (my mind) but if I need to talk about it, or express it, it doesn't come out right all the time.

    It's almost like interpreting for a foreign person when you don't know the language, I can say things like moods, "I'm mad" or "I'm happy" easily, but if someone asks, "Why do you like me?" I know if I do but I can't say why without really taking my time to think about it and process it. If someone wants a rushed answer, I'll say what I think logically fits, not what I feel...

    When I can't communicate my feelings, I get frustrated and have had tantrums. I'll also cry at the drop of a hat at movies. I have no idea why. I can't control it well. Something I've noticed (about myself at least) is that when I love someone or like someone, it's forever. I don't change how I feel based on changes. I still love my ex-wife even though she hurt me bad. I like all the friends I've ever had and would do anything I could to help them, even if they hurt/betrayed me.

    I've noticed that most NT's lie, cheat and hurt each other on purpose, I would never do that on purpose. My ex cheated on me, and I could have never done that to her. If someone I didn't like at all or "hated" came up to me and asked for help, I'd help them. I've noticed that even NT's I've been friends with will treat me like crap or ignore me if I've made a mistake and they don't want to be friends anymore, even if I beg them...

    Billy

  • anonymous

    the only thing i can say about autistic is....they are the special children of God... and to those parents... God ask them a special job and that is to take good care of God's special kid... they are special because they have the talents that we dont have... like this girl who the teacher ask her what is the weather for today and while the teacher is asking it is sunny day outside... but the autistic child said it is raining day and he insist it... after 10 minutes the rain fall down... see their thoughts are more advance than us... i really love autistic people for they are the most special .... they are lucky for they dont have competition for them to live... they are happy as they are... thanks God for the lesson that I've learn from them... 
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