Thursday, 28 May 2009
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QOTD - Where do you stand on Vaccinations?
Some believe that Vaccine's cause Autism or at least contribute to it, and others don't. From the controversy over MMR vaccinations, and if Companies are involved in protecting themselves by supposedly hiding something.
In any event, let's sound off:
Where do you stand: Are Vaccinations a contributing factor (or Cause) of Autism?
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Comments (79)
I don't know. It is possible. IT hasn't been proven one way or the other. It may be but it might not be.
The evidence is clearly against the idea that vaccines cause autism. Vaccines are an important part of modern life and people who spread misinformation concerning them are just harming others.
I know a lot of highly intelligent people (including doctors and others of the medical field) who don't trust the blanket assurances given by our government and the medical industry.
I'll admit that I need to do more research on the subject, but from what I do know, vaccinations make little sense. To me, it's another example of unnecessary tampering with mother nature. Our bodies have natural immunities and the best way to keep from getting sick is to eat healthy, get plenty of sleep, exercise, and avoid environmental pollutants.
Many people believe that vaccinations damage our body's immune system. It seems that we're trading off possible immunity (as I understand it, the efficacy of vaccines is unproven) against a handful of diseases for lowered immunity towards all diseases. For instance, you might have a higher immunity against measles if you get vaccinated, but a higher susceptibility to cancers or std's.
Basically, it's an individual choice. And whether or not vaccines cause autism is just the tip of the iceberg.
@Strangebrain@xanga - I think the 1 in 150 kids is a pretty damn high bodycount.
@Kristenmomof3@xanga - Actually the evidence is against any causation.
My child has aspergers and I I do not believe that vaccinations had anything to do with it. I don't assume to know anything for sure, other than vaccinations have saved lives.
wow that's a good question...i don't know enough about it to totally discount the idea that vaccines may have something to do with it...however, my young nephew has autism and looking back, he displayed signs very early, before he got some of the required vaccines soooo...
@distractedbyzombies@xanga - "To me, it's another example of unnecessary
tampering with mother nature. Our bodies have natural immunities and
the best way to keep from getting sick is to eat healthy, get plenty of
sleep, exercise, and avoid environmental pollutants." -Yes eating healthy and exercising are important, but vaccines do use your bodies natural immunities. When you get a vaccine you are getting the same antigen (which illicits the immune response and production of lymphocytes) that you would have gotten from exposure to the pathogen; only with vaccines you are getting a non-virulent set of antigens.
"Many people believe that vaccinations damage our body's immune system. It seems that we're trading off possible immunity." -I'm sure if you asked a group of immunologists or infectious disease doctors they'd express quite a different conclusion.
"It seems that we're trading off possible
immunity (as I understand it, the efficacy of vaccines is unproven)
against a handful of diseases for lowered immunity towards all
diseases. For instance, you might have a higher immunity against
measles if you get vaccinated, but a higher susceptibility to cancers
or std's." -There is (as of today) zero evidence to the notion that illiciting an immune response --via vaccine or any other method--to one thing will weaken your immune response to something else. And vaccines have been shown to be very efficacious, even in those whose immune system is compromised.
"I think the 1 in 150 kids is a pretty damn high bodycount" -What are you referring to?
Vaccines have always made me a little nervous. Especially anything new. 'Sure we tested it on monkeys for six months, and then people for another six, but ten years down the line who the hell knows." And frankly, I just wouldn't be comfortable putting anything with a neurotoxic into a developing child's body unless absolutely necessary.
As to causing autism ... I don't know.
@Strangebrain@xanga - The children with autism.
Those are a lot of assurances, but they run contrary to what I've read and know. Your absolutes ('no qualified experts think so') just aren't true. You're welcome to convince others, though.
I grew up being vaccinated for..I dunno, six things? Polio, Measles, Rubella, Mumps, Scarlet Fever and I don't know what else.
I never heard of Autism til my late teens.
Nowadays they vaccinate for a lot more, as I understand it, and Autism is a lot more prevalent.
I only let my kids be vaccinated for the things I was. They were healthy thank God.
I am truly ignorant on this subject, but a connection doesn't seem out of the question.
I believe they may be a contributing factor in kids who are already genetically susceptible. I don't think vaccines cause autism; such a claim would mean they'd have to cause it in every kid. But I do think they're a contributing factor in some cases.
Compare it to something like penicillin. In some people, it can trigger a fatal reaction. But others have no problem with it. Would you pump penicillin into someone that was allergic to it just because it's safe for other people? Of course not. But that's what's happening with vaccines.
Unfortunately, until there's a test to determine which kids are at risk, there's really no other option for worried parents except for delaying or foregoing vaccinations.
@Strangebrain@xanga - '"I think the 1 in 150 kids is a pretty damn high bodycount" -What are you referring to?'
1 in 150 refers to today's rate of autism diagnosis. It's even higher in some areas, especially among boys.
Everyone who believes in the bullshit "research" that vaccines cause autism should read THIS and THIS.
It's not the vaccines, per se, that they say causes it but the way they claim testosterone binds to mercury in the vaccines (essentially mercury poisoning). The thing is THE HYPOTHESIS HAS BEEN PROVEN WRONG!
CHEMICALLY CASTRATING YOUR CHILDREN IS NOT GOING TO HELP. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THAT TREATMENT. YOU'RE JUST PAYING RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY TO QUACK DOCTORS AND HARMING YOUR CHILDREN WITH A DRUG MADE TO SUPPRESS PROSTATE CANCER AND ALL OVARIAN FUNCTION.
For the love of god, do your research. Way to fuck up your autistic children even more.
(Sorry for yelling. I just can't stand the fact that people are advocating sheer stupidity.)
I don't think vaccines have nearly as much to do with it as people want to think. Personally, I would blame, or at least consider the possibility of, technology creating electromagnetic and possibly other types of interference that are screwing with our brains.
Prior to the early 1980s, there weren't nearly as many things that generate that kind of interference. Those things that were around were not really used by the general public. Now, it is rare to find a home without a computer. Even more rare to find one without a TV or a microwave. It is commonplace to have cordless phones and cell phones. More and more wireless devices, remote controls, etc.
I mean think about it, even cars now have computers in them and require certain amounts of shielding from interfering with each other on the road. Perhaps there is some level of correlation between children exposed to high levels of technological interference and autism.
I would be interested to see if any research is being done from this angle. *shrugs*
@Strangebrain@xanga - Here's at least one leading immunologist who disagrees: http://www.nitrf.org/Mercurydangers.html
Just so's you know.
@keystspf@xanga - I think that should be explored, too. The particular pathology of autism doesn't leave a smoking gun pointing to things like electro-magnetics, but with some of the known effects of it, I wouldn't be surprised.
@Strangebrain@xanga - I was also able to turn up several interesting articles discussing protests of the legitimacy of these studies, including allegations of falsifying evidence. There was a letter from a congressman/physician amongst them. The impetus is there for a cover-up. Billions of dollars are at stake. Thousands of people could be jailed. The entire credibility of the american medical community. The confidence in our pharmaceuticals companies. Never underestimate the power of covering your ass.
All that to say...maybe they're safe...maybe they aren't. I have one child with autism, not worth it to gamble with the second kiddo. Sorry.
I'm against vaccinations not on the basis they directly cause autism, but rather on the basis they have other devastating side effects. I'm pretty against allopathy/western medicine anyway.
Give me all natural remedies any day. I suggest reading "Natural Cures" by Kevin Trudeau that exposes the greedy physicians and pharmaceutical companies for the snakes they are. Western medicine is a scam.
@distractedbyzombies@xanga - I was trying really hard to stay out of this one.
Ok, first of all, who of you out there knows that there are very stringent warnings on how to change those funky 'green' light bulbs when they break, but you can only find these warnings on the internet? what's the dealio with mercury in the new bulbs? I don't hear a big outcry going up over the mercury we've had all around us for decades.
My personal opinion-- measle shots and autism
I grew up without doctors for the most part, and I remember when I was in the 3rd grade the whole school was supposed to get measle shots, but I was exempt because my mom signed a paper. I later got measles in high school, and was VERY sick. High fever from measles can cause a number of things from hearing loss to permanent retardation, and since I've seen this personally (above link), I'm having a hard time with the big scare over the shots causing or enhancing autism. Measles DEFINITELY make a person worse, and you risk dying from them.
I've seen a whole lotta stuff out there about this and that causing all kinds of maladies, and I myself have been through 20 years of very thorough medical investigation. Lyme, Lupus, and Asperger's It's true that flu shots can cause Guillan-Barre syndrome, but my mother-in-law had only a mild case of that and is fine, and flu shots certainly cause nervous system problems with me because of my CNS lupus, but I'm such high risk from dying from regular flu, I'd much rather have the shot.
I have a family history that makes studying autism (and other things) vs. measle shots and whatever else very easy, because I was raised by a Mennonite father who didn't believe in doctors. I had the autism FIRST before I ever got the shots or got sick with all kinds of other things, most of which seriously affect my nervous system now. So I have loads of experience with the whole 'enhancing' the autism thing. Yes, a flare up of any kind kinda highlights the ol' aspie tendencies, I'm certainly more noticeably weird. I think I've had more brain scans (CTs, MRIs) than anyone I know. As I'm getting older, my brain and liver are less able to tolerate meds of any kind, and I'm starting to have difficulty with how much longer I'll be driving myself around, because I get so goofy on bad days. When my husband watches me follow a complete stranger around Walmart and giggles when I 'come to' and realize I'm lost, I'd say something is enhancing my tendency to space out and flap my sleeves together while I walk around looking at the lights.
Anyway, we see very little REAL death and disease in our day and age, except on tv. Once in awhile it hits close to home. But now that the media is hyping autism awareness, suddenly everything looks sinister. How in the world did we ever make it this far blundering around in the first place? I was accidentally given double the polio vaccines and boosters during the very short time I did see a doctor as a tot, but I'm walking, but no one ever thought to blame epstein barr for some of the things that happened to me as a child. There are thousands of viruses out there that worry me MUCH more than shots. I spent 6 weeks in living hell about a year and a half ago with a very common virus called cytomegalovirus that most people never even know they get (when people get 'the crud', and the doctor says "it's a virus", you have no idea which virus out of thousands because they don't test until it starts killing you), and there is nothing they can do about. My liver and spleen swelled and I thought I'd drown in my lung fluids. Until you GET this sick, or watch other people suffer through something this badly, you don't fear the diseases humans used to regularly fall victim to.
I've been exposed to a BIG mercury spill in a hospital, and because I was smart and very cautious and knew what to do, I never got sick from that. Part of my being very smart and cautious and knowing what to do is an obsession with information and training, which I have the autistic side of me to thank for. In light of that, and all the other mercury we're exposed to daily without a care, I'm pretty sure a measle shot reaction would be more of an idicator of an underlying egg allergy than anything. My youngest sister is so allergic to eggs that she CAN'T have shots. Her son has a peanut allergy. ~Food~ will kill them faster than anything else.
I agree with others here, you can make up your own minds about this. I grew up without shots and here I am. But my cousin also grew up without shots and had measles so badly that he's been permanently and severely retarded ever since. Flip a coin.
@bluejacky@xanga - @Strangebrain@xanga - bluejacky, I'll have to respond later because it's time for me to go pick up my son. Just wanted to offer one thing to think about though: why the demonization/belittling of those that question this? My personal hunch is that mercury does NOT cause autism. But it's just a hunch. Not strong enough for me to vaccinate, in my situation.
I am greatly bothered by the insinuations made against those who raise concerns against vaccines or who choose not to vaccinate. Disturbed, even. To question is natural and moral. These things need to be investigated adequately. People OUGHT to think twice before injecting their bodies and their children's bodies with KNOWN toxins and carcinogens. But we don't want them to think twice. We want them to go along and do what they're told like good citizens. Why is that?
@bluejacky@xanga - Actually, I can respond very quickly. I don't know you from adam. Nor your family. While it's awesome that you are sharing your experience, it is but one anecdotal experience from someone I know nothing about. Pretty much I'm left to take you at your word and to take your conclusions about your experiences as valid. I have no real problem with doing that, but it's no way to do science or to draw conclusions.
@distractedbyzombies@xanga - Actually, I applaud that way of thinking. I wish more people would think scientifically. But this is a forum for sharing experiences. Demonizing? You sounded pretty upset about it, I just countered with experience. A doctor tried to report me and have my little girl taken away from me when she was 8 years old for being a 'neglectful parent', because I hadn't made sure she got all her innoculations. I've BEEN there. Both sides. I grew up with fearful parents, and I came out of it with living a medical nightmare all my adult life ~anyway~, and I'm just pointing out that none of that stuff caused me being on the autism spectrum. Apologies if you thought I did this simply to pick on you, but you don't have to pick back and call me a demonizer on top of it. You don't have to believe a word I say, true. But that doesn't make your words or thoughts or ideas any better, either. It's your child, do what you want. I understand where you are right now. But it seems you yourself are trying to dissuade others from innoculating their own children over your conclusions, so let's be fair here.
@distractedbyzombies@xanga - First let me express my sympathy for you and your family; I have a number of friends with autistic children or siblings and I’m aware of how difficult it can sometimes be.
As to Dr. Fudenburg: He has made a number of dubious claims the result of which lost him his medical license for being “guilty of engaging in dishonorable, unethical, or unprofessional conduct”.
I’d be interested in reading these articles, however the likelihood that researchers (like those in the links I provided) would falsify evidence –as some type of cover up--is a bit absurd and runs the conspiracy fallacy.
The biggest no-no within the scientific community is falsifying evidence. You not only run the risk of losing your current job, but jeopardize the validity of any subsequent research you do. Not to mention such a conspiracy would have to be world wide as most vaccines are not even produced in the U.S. anymore.
I agree with you that it is natural (and beneficial) to question; that’s why we do this (and every other) type of research. But if you question something and ignore the results when they go against your previous notions you’re not really asking a question or seeking an answer; you’re merely making unfounded statements.
By the way, I think the bigger concern here should be over innoculating babies so much while they're still so teeny, overwhelming their immune systems. I mentioned that I held my own daughter back from getting innoculations until she was 8, that was because she went into such intense high fevers for so long after her first innoculation, and I never went back for the rest. After the doctor freaked me out about health services taking my kid away over that, we went ahead and caught her shots up, and she didn't have a single reaction. So I'm wondering-- perhaps some of these shots should be held back until the children have passed the toddler stage and have enough brain development for us to be able to see if the shots really do affect their brain capablities. I know this would sound like a horribly unethical experiment in the medical community because that leaves the babies exposed to high risk diseases, but I think parents should be given more of a choice to hold back until other things are established in the child's medical history, for instance, food allergies, developmental progression, etc.
This is probably something most people don't think about because we're not aware enough of this in the media. Many of the medications and shots and whatever that people do actually die from are a result of cytokine storm. This is a body response to chemical change, a super allergy that kills the body. No one can predict when it will happen or why, but once a person's immune system is triggered, sometimes it has a hard time with the shut off signal. This has happened in my own family, an unnecessary death in a hospital, no one's fault. I myself am extremely sensitive to medications and antibiotics, and I mentioned my sister and nephew having severe food allergies.
So I propose that this concept of the immune system overreacting to very early innoculations in babies *could* be a trigger for later difficulties, as well as any other theory, but until we study this angle of it, we'll never have real statistics on it. Since innoculations are so deeply ingrained in our medical institutions, they is almost unquestioned. There are 'acceptable losses', and parents are overwhelmed by a bureaucracy that leaves them helpless when questions aren't answered. I propose that maybe our government is a little too enthusiastic about ~enforced~ health care to the point of neglecting some of these questions, and that as parents this is the root of our being labeled neglectful and noncompliant when we take a step back. I don't believe government should rule health care (the ground rules have been in place a ~long~ time), and I don't believe parents should be singled out as monsters for making a decision about their children's healthcare.
If there is fear of harm, I believe the best way to solve it is to do multiple studies comparing one against the other, all with the parents' permission to NOT get innoculations. I'm sure this would raise such an outcry from the public via the media turning it into a big circus that it would equal the morality issues of abortion and stem cell research.
I'm not against parents having doubts here. But I do think there is a way we can establish the right to supervise the health care of our own children in a reasonable fashion, and I wish the WHO or FDA or some kind of govt. commission would take advantage of this to do real studies in a manner that doesn't make either side feel ostracized.
@bluejacky@xanga - Firstly, I seek to dissuade no one. I merely want people to think this over carefully and seek out the best information for themselves. I'm not asking anyone to take my word, I'm simply urging other parents to be responsible and thorough in their research.
Apologies for not being clear. The intention was not to imply that you yourself demonize, but to call your attention to the general tone of 'the other side.' It's important that someone stick up for the parents who, with every best intention, make difficult decisions for their kids, to the best of their ability. They deserve respect, not the scoffing and derision they usually receive. I see, though, from your later comment that there is no such need. I applaud that comment and think it's spot on. It's very sad when governments or even other parents make condemnations, legal or otherwise, over things that aren't their business. That is really what bugs me the most out of all of this.